Agora Linux ???

[fos]

Andre suggested "Agora Linux" in a thread originally about gNewSense.

That would be a very complex undertaking. One that would require a lot of commitment and resources.

If there is interest, we can then determine how our fledgeling will be developed and from which pool of source code. (obviously open source only!)

fos....

[krp]

I'm not a developer but I'll do whatever I can for the benefit of the community.

[danieldk]

As some of you know, I have made a partly finished distro configuration tool a la Adminmenu with Etelerro, Benjamin and others.

[AndreL]

As some of you know, I have made a partly finished distro configuration tool a la Adminmenu with Etelerro, Benjamin and others.
I knew something was brewing somewhere... :)

Note: I wonder why some folks vote "NO" ... Why does it bother them if some of us design a distro?

Maybe the poll doesn't ask the right question...
We mostly need to know if enough "talent" would be interested and in which field they would wish to participate:
- Utilities (as you mentionned)?
- Scripts?
- Tweeks?
- Graphic Art?
- Whatever?

We need to know what kind of distro to develop:
- Minimal Install (as I suggested)?
- Based on Ubuntu (with GNewSense's builder)?
- Based on "stable"? "testing"? with some other distro builder.

Then we should open a restricted "think tank" forum (or else it would never end since we could never please everybody) to study the feasability of such a project.

P.S. When I say "Minimal Install Distro" I am not meaning it in a "geek distro" sense... I mean it more for those who have been around Linux enough to know "what it is". Something for "us" the Agora-Linux-mostly-Libranet-refugees users... :smiley2:

P.S.2. Please, no "sudo root" à la Ubuntu...

By the way, have you noticed how their latest desktop background looks like a Windows background?
.

[danieldk]

I have posted more extensively in the other topic. Some short notes:

- You need a more specific goal. You will probably find 150 "minimal distribution"s on distrowatch.
- Ban artwork from the list of accepted contributions until two weeks before the release. If you don't people will only submit artwork.

In other words, a new distribution should scratch a very specific itch.

[bhobjj]

- Based on Ubuntu (with GNewSense's builder)?


It is not very difficult to modify a debian-based iso such as GRML (http://wiki.grml.org/doku.php?id=remastering&DokuWiki=617aada09a3adafbe956b8e0ff3fe336) or Knoppix.


Then we should open a restricted "think tank" forum (or else it would never end since we could never please everybody) to study the feasability of such a project.

What could this distro have that would make it unique?

Ian Murdock was trying to go beyond his dpkg and apt tools with Componentized Linux (http://componentizedlinux.org/index.php/What_is_a_component%3F). To make it easier for end-users to customize their own distro. I think that his goal is to make the actual distro irrelevant so that applications would work with any distro.

P.S. When I say "Minimal Install Distro" I am not meaning it in a "geek distro" sense... I mean it more for those who have been around Linux enough to know "what it is". Something for "us" the Agora-Linux-mostly-Libranet-refugees users... :smiley2:

Puppy (http://www.puppyos.com/development/howpuppyworks.html) seems to be the most advanced minimal distro.


P.S.2. Please, no "sudo root" à la Ubuntu...

$ sudo passwd
prompt for user password
prompt for new root password (2x)
you now have root!

[AndreL]

Interesting comments...
Thanks.

[benjaminq]

I like the idea, however, the "market" is either swamped or barely existant, depending on the point of view. Swamped, because there are around 300+ distributions already out there. Barely existant if one creates YALDLTOOAE (yet another linux distribution like the other ones already existing).

What I think could do a twist is to pick out one of the popular ones and create a specifically tailored extra-repository for it. Just the icing on the cake. Users may contribute what they think is missing or submit requests for packages that should be in. Everyone can pick out what he likes and leave out what he dislikes.

There are some really good Distros out there, we should just pick out one that nearly fits for everyone here and work out how to make it perfect for everyone here.

If noone has groundbreaking ideas for a really new and inventive concept for makeing a very special Agora-Linux Distribution I would rather stick to "minor improvements" that can be used by many people.

Benjamin

[krp]

If noone has groundbreaking ideas for a really new and inventive concept for makeing a very special Agora-Linux Distribution I would rather stick to "minor improvements" that can be used by many people.

Benjamin

I was thinking those same lines but with a slight twist.

A minimal system that is:

(a) Fast.
(b) Reliable.
(c) Secure.

While we all may consider most distro's as meeting those three criteria, in point of fact, do they?

Neither Gnome or KDE are nearly as fast as GTK (GTK2) packages running under Icewm.

As for reliability consider the recent release of Suse 10.x. It came with quite a few install problems. The same can be said of the new Ubuntu/Xubuntu (6.10) release and a recent Redhat release.

We all know that GNU/Linux is quite a secure OS yet *no* distro that I am aware of (and I could be wrong here) includes integrated crypto to encrypt a partition or directories or multiple files. Further what distro includes built in encryption for mail clients (Mutt, Sylpheed-Claws or Thunderbird as examples) or IM clients? None that I know of.

Those are the things that I believe should be considered.

[danieldk]

If you let me, I will add some fanboy-ism :).

I was thinking those same lines but with a slight twist.
(a) Fast.
(b) Reliable.
(c) Secure.

Sounds like a FreeBSD (or NetBSD install).

Neither Gnome or KDE are nearly as fast as GTK (GTK2) packages running under Icewm.


cd /usr/ports/x11-wm
make install


or


pkg_add -r icewm


As for reliability consider the recent release of Suse 10.x. It came with quite a few install problems. The same can be said of the new Ubuntu/Xubuntu (6.10) release and a recent Redhat release.

IMO that's due to complexity. A simple text installer that has been in use for years, and that is simple has far less a chance of failing.

We all know that GNU/Linux is quite a secure OS yet *no* distro that I am aware of (and I could be wrong here) includes integrated crypto to encrypt a partition or directories or multiple files.

From the FreeBSD handbook:

# create a master key for disk /dev/da2
dd if=/dev/random of=/root/da2.key bs=64 count=1
geli init -s 4096 -K /root/da2.key /dev/da2
# attach the provider
geli attach -k /root/da2.key /dev/da2
# create a new filesystem and mount it
dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/da2.eli bs=1m
newfs /dev/da2.eli
mount /dev/da2.eli /private


Source: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/disks-encrypting.html

Further what distro includes built in encryption for mail clients (Mutt, Sylpheed-Claws or Thunderbird as examples)

All three of them provide SSL/TLS encryption for IMAP, and at least Mutt and Sylpheed have GPG support out of the box. Don't know about Thunderbird (I recall that you need the "enigma" plugin).

or IM clients? None that I know of.

GAIM has GPG support.

I agree very much with Benjamin: make some cool extension for your favorite system.

[fos]

A minimal roll your own system is already available: Linux From Scratch...

The best place to start is with their LiveCD version that includes all of the source code and the current version of the LFS "Book".

You can customize the basic LFS system with Beyond Linux From Scratch.

You can secure your system with Hardened Linux From Scratch.

I have built LFS twice now. The first time took two or three tries. It is a learning process

I also tried Gentoo.

A LFS based source and binary pool could be just what we are looking for.

fos....

[bhobjj]

I was thinking those same lines but with a slight twist.

A minimal system that is:

(a) Fast.
(b) Reliable.
(c) Secure.

And free


Neither Gnome or KDE are nearly as fast as GTK (GTK2) packages running under Icewm.

probably why feather (http://featherlinux.berlios.de/) is still popular even though development seems to have stopped and there has not been a new release in more than a year

There are not many (that I know of) icewm based distros.

I had forgotten just how fast it was until I started using it again a couple of days ago. I had done an apt-get upgrade that totally screwed my gtk fonts. . All I have for fonts are little cubes for each character, so Gnome and Xfce4 are unusable (I can still use them, but there are no labels, and dialog boxes are unreadable). So, I have switched to Icewm when I use X, until I can figure out how to repair the gtk fonts.

We all know that GNU/Linux is quite a secure OS yet *no* distro that I am aware of (and I could be wrong here) includes integrated crypto to encrypt a partition or directories or multiple files.

GRML has encfs (encrypted virtual filesystem) along with tons of other encryption/decryption tools, but ther are no "user friendly" front-ends.

[Sergio1704]

I like the idea, however, the "market" is either swamped or barely existant, depending on the point of view. Swamped, because there are around 300+ distributions already out there. Barely existant if one creates YALDLTOOAE (yet another linux distribution like the other ones already existing).

Benjamin

Nothing to my knowledge has replaced Libranet. That is, a fully Debian compatible distro (including the kernel, you should be able to replace it with a Debian kernel-image), but with added tools and possibly proprietary drivers and plug-ins.
As to the installer I don't know if the default Debian one needs intervention. Probably not.

[danieldk]

If the installer is OK, you'd only need a repository with a configuration tool and additional packages, not a new distribution. That's basically what Koala is/was. Most of it works fine on Debian testing/unstable.

http://koala-config.berlios.de/

[Sergio1704]

Thanks Daniel. I was exactly wondering about that. I'll try it later.

Edit: I understand that it must be compiled? Not very enthusiastic about that :)

[patrick]

I'm sure I don't appreciate what "I would participate" really means. As a lawyer, not a programmer I want to contribute, not just take.

With the return of a prodigal laptop to my booty I was trying to install something other than 2.8.1 and tried Gentoo. I began thinking about LFS but got sidetracked when I had difficulty resizing a reiserfs partition on a running machine. Then I was attracted to Gentoo. I've been successful in installing Gentoo with the genkernel on other machines, but I can't seem to make the manual kernel work. I finallly installed 2.8.1 recently on the Compaq Armada e500 Coppermine 633 but my sense is it may be too outdated to serve as a base for building an up-to-date installation all at once.

All that being said, 2.8.1 IS the foundation of my main "production" computer here at home, a Dell Dimension 4100 733 Coppermine. And my wife uses it too!

After going a few rounds with Gentoo it is my sense that the Libranet crew did a TON of work to put together an exciting desktop installation and make the install painless.

[danieldk]

Thanks Daniel. I was exactly wondering about that. I'll try it later.

Edit: I understand that it must be compiled? Not very enthusiastic about that :)

Not exactly compilation, because it's built with Python :). If there's enough interest I can roll some packages and put them online.

[Sergio1704]

Not exactly compilation, because it's built with Python :). If there's enough interest I can roll some packages and put them online.

Personally I'd be interested.

[lisi]

Personally I'd be interested.

Me too! Me too! <bounces up and down>

[AndreL]

Not exactly compilation, because it's built with Python :). If there's enough interest I can roll some packages and put them online.
Personally I'd be interested.
Me too! Me too! <bounces up and down>
There is interest! :smiley4:

[danieldk]

Ok, then :). Add the following line to your sources.list:


deb http://danieldk.org/apt koala-config main


after that, you can do a


apt-get install koala-config


After that, you can start koala with koala as a normal user. I have only tested it to build/install with sid, but I think testing also provides all the dependencies. Better make a backup of your /etc/network/interfaces file before using the interfaces configuration. It doesn't work anymore, though it was quite nifty (it configured the interface by MAC address rather than the interface name, quite useful if somebody uses PCMCIA/USB NICs), thanks to the ever-changing hotplug/udev cruft ;).

It has been months, or maybe about a year, since we seriously touched the code, though patches are always welcome.

[AndreL]

Oups!
Still with "stable"...
Maybe when I install the "stable" Etch, next year.

[Sergio1704]

Thanks Daniel :)

I'll try it either today or tomorrow.

[patrick]

Ok, then :). Add the following line to your sources.list:


deb http://danieldk.org/apt koala-config main


after that, you can do a


apt-get install koala-config



So this


Since you only requested a single operation it is extremely likely that
the package is simply not installable and a bug report against
that package should be filed.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
koala-config: Depends: python2.4-qt3
Depends: python-dbus (>= 0.71-3) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: hal (>= 0.5.7) but 0.4.7-3sarge1 is to be installed
E: Broken packages


means I have seriously bad ju-ju and need a 2.6 kernel?

Pat

[Leon]

Daniel wrote:
"As some of you know, I have made a partly finished distro configuration tool a la Adminmenu with Etelerro, Benjamin and others."

I've been reading about efforts to update Libranet 3.0 with interest. Lacking broadband, I have not tried anything myself, but having some time I downloaded the latest kernel souce (2.6.19-1) and installed it in Lib 3.0. I expected this would keep me busy for a while. I was extremely disappointed. :-)

I am now running Lib 3.0 with the latest kernel. Adminmenu's kernel tool made this preposterously easy. After copying the tar.bz2 to /usr/src, a few clicks in Adminmenu's kernel tool was all it took.

Note: my test boxes have ATI video cards. I am not going to try this on a box with an Nvidia card, since the last time I tried a kernel upgrade with Lib 2.8.1 I broke X.

[danieldk]

means I have seriously bad ju-ju and need a 2.6 kernel?


Yes, and Etch or Sid. Hardware "probing" with 2.4 would require Kudzu (which we used in the past), but HAL is far more elegant and simpler :).

[uteck]

I believe that modifying Adminmenu is possable now since it falls under the abandon-ware clause that the US Library of Congress made an exception for in the DMCA.
Wow, part of my government going something right for a change.

But, first I will give koala a try to see how it much it has come along.
--edit--
No-go on Ubuntu. koala-config: Depends: python-dbus (>= 0.71-3) but 0.71-2ubuntu1 is to be installed.
I could try and upgrade pythton, but it's late and I am lazy and tired.

[Lavene]

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware)

On November 26, 2006, the United States Copyright Office issued a ruling that read in part:

The Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1)) during the next three years.

.....

Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. [1]

The Copyright Office therefore has now granted limited legal recognition to certain classes of abandonware. However, the word abandonware still has no legal meaning, and the programs mentioned keep their copyrights and it is not legal to distribute them.

Tina

[danieldk]

Lavene: yup, in other words, you still need a license from Tal.
uteck: Ubuntu, yuk :). Anyway, that's an artificial dependency, you can install the python-dbus version that you have, and update the package source to work with that version.

When I have time, I'll change it to require 0.71. I used Debian as a baseline, which had 0.71-3. Sorry :).

[fos]

Speaking of Tal.

How is he doing? I hope he is doing well.

fos....

[lurch]

Fos, my only knowledge of Tal is via his blog.

http://taldanzig.blogspot.com/

[fos]

Thank you for the link, other than the cold, it sounds like Tal is doing well. He is engaged and enjoying his work.

fos

[jjmac]

I guess you mean a distro ....

I think the future just needs what we have to be refined, rather than to add another Linux to the long list.

The future of Linux, imo, will depend on its' usability. That is, the ability people have to be able to understand how to configure and use the Linux they have.

By that i don't mean more bloat on the kde menu, or gnome removing features thinking that is going to make things simpler. Or having services up and running as root just so people don't have to be bothered with their configuration.

We need to work on the paradigm and expand the configurability.

Not achieved via a new distro, and certainly not by trying to emulate a MS system.

Easier said than done, i know.



jm