Microsoft Vista - very expensive

[morgoth]

Since I am using Microsoft Windows XP, I looked at the cost of potentially upgrading to Windows Vista Ultimate - the US website says it has a RRP of US $399 (around au $504). Well, I just checked with Microsoft Australia, and was flabbergasted to be told that it actually had an Australian RRP of $751!!! I asked the customer service guy if he knew why it was so much more expensive than the US version and all he could tell me is that that was the price that they were set to sell it for in Australia. I didn't check on the other prices, but I gather that even basic will probably be going for nearly $500 in Australia then, which is absolutely outrageous!!! I told the customer service guy that I'd probably buy it from the US and direct import it into Australia myself for a much cheaper cost, and he wasn't too impressed with that.

I suppose some of you are asking why I would even consider upgrading? Well, SP3 is going to be pushed back to at least 2008, if it's even released. Doing rebuilds and then having to spend hours downloading updates from the Internet (with some of those updates stopping online exploits!) isn't exactly very good. Yes, I know many of you will probably go "suck shit, you're using a Microsoft product" etc etc, and you might be correct in that, but that's no excuse for poor support from a paying customer.

$750 is outrageous for an operating system...

On an aside, I should be taking ownership of a PowerMac G4 1ghz with a gb of RAM in the next week or so :) :) :) Will upgrade that to Tiger in December :-)

Cheers,

Dave

[Lavene]

In other news... scientists say the moon is not made of cheese after all.

Tina :smiley2:
Damn... I really need to stop reading /.

[danieldk]

Morgoth: I heard that GNU/Linux is a darn good operating system, and it is freely available from FTP sites around the world. :smiley8:

Most people will get Vista with their new computer. Probably the most basic version, and I heard that it is really crippled in functionality.

I never had the need to let a vendor tell what I should do, so I have been running free software operating systems since 1994. Both Windows and OS X are not a real option for me, since they are closed-source black boxes. If necessary, I have to be able to go back to the kernel sources (makes Systemtap and DTrace useful too).

I usually warn people to avoid falling in the OS X trap. It is a non-free system, they take away the right to tinker with your system, and to share it with others. Besides that the kernel is dreaded-slow compared to most other systems.

Oh, well. It all doesn't really matter, free software will be everywhere soon (though not quite like most people expect).

[fos]

// free software will be everywhere soon (though not quite like most people expect)

Don't leave us hanging! I want to read the next chapter. :)

M$ Vista.. Sounds like an Edsel to me. It will be a cold day in hades before I pay $500 to buy another bloated upgrade. Thank goodness I can buy components at discounters.

I feel your pain Morgoth.

fos....

[danieldk]

Don't leave us hanging! I want to read the next chapter. :)


I wrapup without too much reasoning ;): to revise Sun's old catch-line: "The web is the computer." Or at least it will be. Three out of four computer users use their computers to do just a few things:

- E-Mail
- Chat with friends
- Sort out their holiday photo's, and publish them online
- Word processing
- Calendaring
- Keeping track of their budget

It's only the power-user that does much more (I left out gaming for various reasons). More than half of these can easily be done through the web (and people just do that). The other half not well enough yet, for instance word processing. AJAX and underlying frameworks like J2EE are enablers for the things that are not done through the web yet. So, it will be a matter of time before we have decent word processors that work through the web. Try to think as a consumer: what would you rather want to have. A few hundred dollar Office suite from Microsoft, or a simple word processor that does not need installation, works with your e-mail and calendar, and is free with some text ads or a few bucks per month.

So, in the end the average consumer will be left with computer powerhouses (multi-core, multiple gig machines) that do nothing at all. The same applies to the average machine in enterprises. They are terribly expensive in contrast to what they do, they are expensive to maintain (think spyware, viruses, etc.), and they use up a lot of power. Running a browser can easily be done on a sub-$100 RISC machine. Remember that the highest cost factor of the OLPC is the screen. E.g. look at the NSLU2 storage appliance. This is basically a whole RISC machine (except for a video chipset) that sells below $90. With such low production costs, the Microsoft tax is going to matter. If your box could be sold for $100, you don't want to add $50 or $100 Microsoft tax. Yeah, maybe if there was no other option. But you can easily build a customized Linux or BSD system, that adds no per unit cost. This is especially attractive, considering that a manufacturer only has to support just a few hardware configurations.

I can hear people saying: "naaah, the net appliance, they tried that earlier." True, but they stepped into the market at the wrong time. Today is also the wrong moment, at least client-side. In a few years, it will become viable. So, basically, the web plus the margins will push FOSS software to popularity on clients.

Of course, the server side is where the change is made. And this is where Linux already has a strong foothold. Maybe not on traditional file/authentication servers, but they will become less important, as applications move to the server, rather than fully running on clients. The release of Java under the GPL will accelerate this. Finally, there is a performant and stable open/free platform on top of which application servers can run. GNU Classpath + gcj has come a long way, but was not there yet. While competition will probably stay fierce in the server area, I think programmers will prefer having the source of their infrastructure around. Besides that, virtualization is growing stronger, and license-wise FOSS software has lower cost on virtualized hardware, since you don't have to pay per running instance.

So, in my opinion FOSS has already won in the sense that there is no stopping of it. Some companies will (continue to) flourish in the coming years, I am thinking of Red Hat, which focuses on the whole stack now (they made an aggressive move forward when they bought jBoss), and Sun (since they will probably provide the best hardware for large applications, virtualization, at a much lower Watt/performance ratio). Of course, a whole bunch of web companies will profit from this too. Google is a likely contender, and dozens of companies that we don't know yet.

The future struggle will not be that of opening up software (that's why IMO ESR and Ubuntu are making huge mistakes in wanting to integrate proprietary drivers and codecs, they won't matter), but that of rights. If your calendar, e-mail, documents, and budgeting is stored at, say, Google or Yahoo, how can you trust them? How transparent are their architecture and security policies? The potential answer can be to form transparent non-profits that provide comparable services. But that has to happen soon, or it will be difficult to measure up to Google's huge network and hardware infrastructure.

IMO, the smart people are now going to work on good web applications, and smart idealists on non-profit services. Rather than fighting in the trenches, about inclusion of proprietary drivers to spin a desktop cube. These trenches will soon be left behind. Back on-topic: following my reasoning, Windows Vista will probably be one of the last Windows versions that really matters on the client.

[uteck]

There is always slip-streaming of patches into the installer. Or you can download the patches someware and install them from there.
But you really don't want to use Vista until SP1 comes out for it anyway since it will be pushing down large updates every patch Tuesday until then.
Now is a good time to try running thous M$ apps with WINE. Lots of updates have gone into it, and I think Office 2003 may run now. Use the XP theme for Gnome or KDE, and users may not know the difference. :)

http://frankscorner.org/ Has tips for getting troublesome apps running
There is also http://www.wine-doors.org but I am not sure how mature it is yet.

[uteck]

I just saw this project at SourceForge; Updater-CD
http://updater-cd.sourceforge.net/about.html

Might solve some of your immediate problems.

[AndreL]

Hey! Maybe they just want people to leave it on the shelf... :)

http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/ind...te_of_what_you (http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/index.php/2006/11/03/ms_aamp_novell_the_opposite_of_what_you)
.
.

[bluesdog]

Perhaps MS is testing the waters... How much $$ are microserfs willing to spend?

This is a market dominated by young-ish gadget-o-philes, with pleny $$, many of whom actually camp out overnight to purchase a game box (!)

Bet Vista will be discounted later on :biggrin:

btw, Dave, why not buy another hard disk and set up a dual boot system? Use XP for your camera stuff, Linux for the rest?

[morgoth]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Daniel - we've had this argument before, Photoshop CS2 does NOT run under WINE or CrossOver Office. It is a must have for me. For that simple reason, GNU/Linux, BSD and Solaris are all out of the question. If Adobe ported Photoshop to GNU/Linux, and Neat Image ran natively in Linux, I'd be back in Linux land. I'm not even looking at the game issue. I personally have huge moral problems with projects like Cedega or CrossOver office, they make a mockery of the fundamental reason for existence of the GPL and Free Software imho. I guess I'm not a fan of capitalistic commercialism.

Yes, Vista basic versions are crippled, and I'm very surprised by this move by Microsoft. Either it expects that most people will be happy with crippled versions, or most people will elect to pay huge amounts of money to upgrade. Very odd tactical move from them. Even then, I have no idea how Microsoft can justify the costs of Vista, although 99% of Microsoft Window sales are via OEM anyways, with very few people buying a retail boxed version. I suspect very few OEMs will be providing Vista Ultimate on their machines. I've also heard that Microsoft has increased the price to OEMs by a full 100%, of which the OEMs will probably absord this price, in order to keep the costs of the machine package itself down to reasonable levels.

Vista does make a very good improvement to things stability and security wise, and to me that's of major importance. The pretty new interface etc don't do that much for me. I really do wonder if Microsoft will have a backlash and that very few people will buy Vista. The main thing is that the OEMs are forced to buy Vista licenses, as Windows XP will no longer be available. I'm sure most of the OEMs would prefer XP for a variety of reasons, such as cost.

As to OS X, yes, it's a closed system, but I consider it the best [overall] operating system currently available. It looks good, runs good, has good security, and good features. It's price is very reasonable as well. Sure, you're paying the Apple Hardware Tax, and that's annoying.

In the end, I've learnt that a computer is a tool. It's a tool to meet ones needs. Nothing more, and nothing less. After several years of campaigning for FSF etc, I've realised one simple fact:

The VAST majority of people don't give a shit

Maybe 1-2% of computer users worldwide know about GPL/FSF etc, and care about these freedoms. The rest of the world simply couldn't care less. If you don't believe that, you need to get out some more. I've realised that now, and in the end, if people want to choose FSF, they will. You can't make them, and you can't make them appreciate its benefits if they simply do not want to. No matter how hard you try. For the vast majority of people using Linux, they use it cos it's free (as in cost). The free (as in freedom) doesn't even present itself as something to think about.

These are cold, hard truths, it took me several years of personal frustration to realise this, and now I simply refuse to play the FSF game. I have better things to do with my time, and I want to use my computer as a tool, not as a ideological statement. In a perfect world, FSF would be great. Sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

William, thanks for the updater-cd link, much appreciated.

Bluesdog - waiting is a good idea, and one that I'm tempted to do. Sadly, I do not forsee Microsoft dropping the prices on retail boxes of Vista, since they make such a small percentage of sales. Microsoft probably runs at a loss on Windows (since 99% of sales are OEM sales at vastly reduced prices to the OEM, probably just above cost price), but makes its money with MS Office I suspect.

Tina, the moon is made of swiss cheese, honest guv!

Cheers,

Dave

[danieldk]

Daniel - we've had this argument before, Photoshop CS2 does NOT run under WINE or CrossOver Office.

You mean some replacement like nip2 (that does CMYK and CIE Lab)? Freedom comes with a price ya'know. The nineties were a lot worse, when PDF was no commodity, there was no web browser (except for the always crashy hog that was called Netscape Navigator/Communicator), no decent Office Suite, etc. While this may sound harsh, I don't see the problem :). There are many photographers that use GNU/Linux.

I have nothing against Windows, it's the people's choice. But it is kinda strange for someone ranting against commercialism and proprietary software, to get set back by what is a relatively small hurdle. Some of use have put up with Linux and used it for work and pleasure when all major programs were regularly dumping core. I guess that 75% of the GNU/Linux user doesn't even know what a core dump is today.

Yeah, and I have been here too. My girlfriend had to work with very large CMYK images for posters. Though, we managed to do stuff easily with nip2 (within about 10 MB RAM ;), it rocks that much, and nobody knows it).

I personally have huge moral problems with projects like Cedega or CrossOver office, they make a mockery of the fundamental reason for existence of the GPL and Free Software imho. I guess I'm not a fan of capitalistic commercialism.

Did you ever talk to the CrossOver guys? They are good people. The contribute every change they make to WINE back to the community (as required by the license that governs WINE). Besides that they sponsor WINE events, etc.

Vista does make a very good improvement to things stability and security wise, and to me that's of major importance.

Still no good mandatory access control system that can dictate policies for every program on the system. Still no protections like ExecShield and Propolice offer. And still no access to the source, to check for security errors. Security is not about screaming from rooftops, it is about engineering. Besides that, I don't think it is very secure to give a company control over your system, up till the point that they constantly check your copy to be "genuine".

It looks good, runs good,

And is a step backward when it comes to freedom. Heck, even two steps, because you can't even choose your hardware vendor. If there's one example of locking in people this is it (OS X, Fairplay, and the list goes on).

has good security,

This has never been proven, and it actually seems to be security through obscurity.

In the end, I've learnt that a computer is a tool.

IMO that is an irrealistic view. Technology is value-laden. E.g. if some new method for prenatal research is introduced, it is not just a new option, it shifts ethics. It is not something that is just an additional choice. No, if a child is diagnosed with some illness after birth, people will say "if you tested for this or that during your pregnancy, this wouldn't have happened". And people know that, and will do such tests, to avoid the possibility of feeling guilty afterwards. Technology isn't just a sterile tool. Everything, the net, larger bandwidth, systems, programs shift ethics and politics and all kind of subtle ways.

After several years of campaigning for FSF etc, I've realised one simple fact:

The VAST majority of people don't give a shit

Fortunately some people did. In times when the foundations of democracy and freedom were laid down, most people probably didn't give a shit. When RMS started coding GNU most people didn't give a shit, now it powers a huge share of servers. (IMO) Not doing something good or worthwhile, because the majority doesn't care about it, is a bad reason.

Changing the tide requires persistency. Year after year after year. It takes time to build. But in the end it will be useful, and will move us one step forward to a better world.

Maybe 1-2% of computer users worldwide know about GPL/FSF etc, and care about these freedoms. The rest of the world simply couldn't care less. If you don't believe that, you need to get out some more.

True, but as John Stuart Mill said:

One person with a belief is equal to a force of 99 who have only interests.

We have to move forward, and that can't be done by ranting, complaining. Be creative, build, and be determined in what you do.

I've realised that now, and in the end, if people want to choose FSF, they will. You can't make them, and you can't make them appreciate its benefits if they simply do not want to.

True. You can't. But we are building an alternative. Maybe some day people will learn about freedom. Maybe they won't. But every single person that starts believing in freedom (both as in free software, being creative, and taking affairs in your own hand) is well worth to do all of this. When there is freedom in the widest sense of the word, people can develop mentally, and that is good. And things seem to work darn well. Free software is flourishing, Creative Commons is flourishing. The western world didn't become a democracy overnight. It took centuries. And we are still messing up. But still, we are better off.

These are cold, hard truths, it took me several years of personal frustration to realise this, and now I simply refuse to play the FSF game.

Understandable. But why do you continue to rant about closed software, prices, enterprises? It is a waste of energy, and it wears out people.

[morgoth]

Daniel,

My preference is for the usage of Photoshop. It is the industry standard, and it does the job, and does it very well. I really do hope that Adobe does port it to Linux, but until then...as to CrossOver office, I haven't spoken to them, but I have checked their website FAQs to see if Photoshop CS2 works with it, and it is listed as it doesn't. Pity.

Dave

[AndreL]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Daniel - we've had this argument before, Photoshop CS2 does NOT run under WINE or CrossOver Office. What about win4lin? Did you try that? Still cheaper than Vista... Or those Virtual PC Softwares? Wouldn't they work?

It is a must have for me. For that simple reason, GNU/Linux, BSD and Solaris are all out of the question. If Adobe ported Photoshop to GNU/Linux, and Neat Image ran natively in Linux, I'd be back in Linux land. I'm not even looking at the game issue. I personally have huge moral problems with projects like Cedega or CrossOver office, they make a mockery of the fundamental reason for existence of the GPL and Free Software imho. I guess I'm not a fan of capitalistic commercialism.Why don't you stick with XP, then. You can do whatever you want for now with your photos, no? As for the (lack of) security just don't hook it to Internet. I use Windows for multitrack recording and that machine cannot go or receive from Internet. I download stuff I need (even software upgrades) from my Linux machine and transfer it to that PC through my home network. Then you don't need the patches and service packs.

Maybe you do not have 2 computers but, tho dualbooting is a bit of a hassle to do upgrades, it is still better than being a MS "slave"... I did that for a few years before I bought the second machine.

Just some thoughts.
.
.

[danieldk]

My preference is for the usage of Photoshop. It is the industry standard, and it does the job, and does it very well. I really do hope that Adobe does port it to Linux, but until then...

They did, they ported a recent version for Disney. Though, they are not interested in providing it to you, because your pockets are not deep enough.

[danieldk]

What about win4lin? Did you try that? Still cheaper than Vista... Or those Virtual PC Softwares? Wouldn't they work?

That's a very good point, and IIRC people said that to Dave. The nice thing is that you can run an isolated Windows virtual machine, and there is no need to buy new versions, because you don't need the security updates. Win4Lin and Parallels are great, or if you want something that is free, qemu + kqemu do the job well enough.

[Leon]

Bluesdog wrote:
"Perhaps MS is testing the waters... How much $$ are microserfs willing to spend?"

"Microserf" says it all.

According to an editorial in the Dec. MaxPC, Vista will allow only two installs.

[Lavene]

According to an editorial in the Dec. MaxPC, Vista will allow only two installs.

Thay have actually changed that (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/11/02/news-revision-to-windows-vista-retail-licensing-terms.aspx). They had an epiphany and realized that they would exclude thousands of harware enthusiasts and litarary force them (and probably quite a deal of the game creators) over to Linux.

Tina

[bhobjj]

Thay have actually changed that (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/11/02/news-revision-to-windows-vista-retail-licensing-terms.aspx). They had an epiphany and realized that they would exclude thousands of harware enthusiasts and litarary force them (and probably quite a deal of the game creators) over to Linux.

Tina

But the RFM "reduced functionality mode" from not (re)activating is going to rankle lots of people.
(2 page article)
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9004970&pageNumber=1


Vista will go into RFM mode after:
* Failure to activate within the grace period (30 days after installation)
* Failure to renew activation within three days of a major hardware replacement
* The activation process has been determined to have been tampered with or worked around, or other tampering of license files is detected.
* A leaked, stolen or prohibited product key is detected that is blocked by Microsoft product activation servers.

[Lavene]

Well, I can't see that it will be a big problem if you have a legit copy. A minor annoyance of course but no big deal... if the whole key management system at MS works flawlessly of course.

On the other hand I couldn't care less... I do not intend to buy Vista, or any other MS operating system for that matter, in any foreseeable future :smiley10:

Tina

[morgoth]

True Bob. But, remember, Microsoft Windows is heavily pirated, and Microsoft does have every right to protect their copyrights and IP. If people didn't break the law, and did the right thing, then piracy would be right down and Microsoft (and others) wouldn't have to take such drastic actions that annoy the honest few. Microsoft is a business, and it has a responsibility to its shareholders to ensure that it protects its valuable commodities.

Dave

[bhobjj]

True Bob. But, remember, Microsoft Windows is heavily pirated, and Microsoft does have every right to protect their copyrights and IP. If people didn't break the law, and did the right thing, then piracy would be right down and Microsoft (and others) wouldn't have to take such drastic actions that annoy the honest few. Microsoft is a business, and it has a responsibility to its shareholders to ensure that it protects its valuable commodities.

Dave
You mean that the software is worth more than $25.00?
I do not agree.

Which means that I am assumed to be a "PIRATE" until I proved otherwise?
I am a customer (well, maybe not me.), but WTF, I want some respect. I don't want to be treated like trash.

I think that it is a wash. Lots of systems are purchased (or discarded) without the OEM system activated, Lots of copies are purchased without ever being used.

When I help someone replace a a failed board in their system, I have to go through (the agony of) those gyrations of activation.

Here is a hint:
Always activate with the toll-free number.(don't use the net.)
Make sure that you work your way through the system to get a "live" person.
Remember that your time is worth at least 10X what theirs is. Make sure that you ask what their name is. If you have any problems, Ask to speak with their supervisor.


MS did one cool thing though,
They released "power shell" as a free download:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/powershell/download.mspx

[benjaminq]

Vista IS SP3 with a large amount of resource hungry bloat in it. Dave, have you already considered the hardware issue? Minimum 1 GB of RAM 2 GB recommended. Want a Windows upgrade, get a new computer with it (with a minimum of 3 GHz).

Photoshop runs fine on XP. I would simply refuse that an OS consumes or reserves THAT amount of RAM. In German it is called Arbeitsspeicher == working memory. I'd like the programs to work with this memory, not the OS in the first place.

I recommended Spybot S&D to you already, there is no need to use the InternetExplorer or Outlook either, so with a virus scanner like AntiVir and Spybot you are considerably secure to stick with XP for quite a time.

I just do not see the benefit of Vista. Every Windows mag throws you to near death with DVDs packed with tools that complement the functional add-ons of Vista.

I'll probably get a copy of Vista when this machine burns down to ashes and I have to replace it with something you don't get without MS-tax ...

Benjamin